RECALLING AN INTERVIEW WITH DR NAVANTHEM PILLAY AFTER SHE WAS NOMINATED AS UN HUMAN RIGHTS HIGH COMMISSIONER IN JULY 2008 Another woman leader of Indian-origin who should be recognised during this Womens’ Month in South Africa is Dr Navanethem Pillay. From humble, working class beginnings in the suburb of Clairwood in Durban, Dr Pillay rose to be appointed as UN Human Rights Commissioner in September 2008. Her nomination was approved by the UN at the end of July 2008. She held the position from September 2008 to 2014. After she was nominated, I had the privilege of interviewing her at her home in Durban. In this radio documentary, which was produced after the interview, concentrates about her early life in Clairwood, university education, and her work as a lawyer.



I also transcribed the interview for print: 1. Your early life? I lived and grew up in Clairwood where it was a mixed community. African, coloured and Indian everyone got on very well. It was very safe you trusted everyone. It was an extremely poor community but there was a community feeling about that place. To go back a bit about the background - my grand-father was brought here as an indentured labourer to work in the sugar cane fields. He lost both his arms in the mill, they were cut off. But he remained self-supporting. He became a sardar and he remained. He supported himself and he had two wives. He died at age 87. He had two sons, my father as everybody knows was a bus driver. my father had seven children. My father was different from most people of my generation. He felt that all the children were equal and he had to educate the girls as well as the boys. So whereas my friends in high school at age 15 16 had to leave school because their parents had arranged marriages for them, I continued with my education. I would never have been able to go to university had it not been for the people of Clairwood. The principal of the high school, Mr V Naidoo, and the teachers went around the community and they collected funds to send this young girl who has the potential to university. And it was the V Naidoo Bursary Fund I think which still continues because when I qualified as a lawyer, I paid back the money, so that other students would benefit. It was very difficult times. You had the simplest of foods. My mother grew all the vegetables in the garden and we all helped her. Looking back it was clearly a far more healthy lifestyle to eat lots of fresh vegetables and meat occasionally. My mother and father worked extremely hard. I remember that they even built the house together brick by brick actual physical labour. So all the children are educated and are in the professions. My father died two years ago after reaching the age of 100. Teenage Marriage? My father was such a dominant personality that he had the say and my mother wholly supported that. My brothers would not say that, they were not competitive in that respect. My mother always believed in education and she said that her father wouldn't send her to school because he said that once she learns to write she would write letters to boyfriends and so he forbade her from going to school. She was Telugu-speaking and she taught herself and she was highly-skilled. "These are the people who are my role models. They had nothing and they taught themselves. Daily they thought about how to improve themselves and she said that girls you must have an education so that you won't be a slave to men. The expression is very beautiful in Tamil that you should never be a slave to a man. That's how we were brought up and it was Indian only schools , Indian teachers - highly-dedicated teachers." Tamil traditions! We were brought up very strictly according to Tamil and Hindu traditions regular prayers and so on. We attended the Sunday service at the temple every Sunday and when I was 12 or 13 I ended up as Tamil teacher because I completed all the grades and they didn't know what to do with me so they made me a teacher. We knew all the Thevaram songs and would sing it every weekend at the temple. We had no newspaper at home and we had no radio. But we had to learn English because at school we had to learn English. So gradually what happened in our home also happened in most other homes the children would speak to their parents in English and the parents had to adapt and learn the language as well and so we almost forgotten our own mother tongue. When I started law practice I used to speak Tamil. The elderly used to find that very helpful especially when we were talking about the will and so on. I think if I have a three month refresher course I will be fluent again becaue it's all deep inside me obviously it's my language. My father spoke excellent Tamil and Telugu. What I want to say about education is that it was apartheid education. The whole history was what the whites wanted us to understand. In that respect we were indoctrinated and I think if any child tried to be confident and think outside the mould would make it and some of us did. And I can recall many instances and I am surprised now that at such a young age I tried to distinguish between what was just and unjust and what's right and wrong. University! In primary and high school is that you had everything second hand so these old books came from white schools, desks came from white schools. So you understood that you were being disadvantaged because of your colour. Secondly there was the pegging act at that time where they took away the land owned by Indians later it became the group areas act - so the community of Indians were highly organised in protesting that and then we had the history of Gandhi and the peaceful marches that even women joined in. Those traditions affected us. In high school I would have been there between 12 and 16 - the high school campuses were very volatile students were very alert. I remember some students would have pamphlets printed against the Group Areas Act for instance and they would hide them in their socks because there were constant raids Teachers were under contract not to speak about anything political. So it was extremely artificial system where we were all suffering out there where we could not speak about if openly in the classroom. And one year the security police raided our school because the students went on a strike and they rounded up all the prefects. They were trying to find ringleaders and so on. And I remember how the principal and teachers stood back. It was almost like the secret police and took over our school. And so I spoke up. I spoke up we were assigned duty stations and that's where we were and I remember how they stared at me because they were looking for ring leaders. Of course I wondered why the teachers and other children did not speak out. It was an environment where we were all intimidated because the penalties were so strong - you could be out of school, your parents could be jailed, detained for protesting. At university everyone was hyper alert. You then are with students of all race groups - Africans whites and I was part of the student movement and the National Unity Movement which spoke about imperialism and how the wealth of the country is owned by big businesses outside the country. So you get a political education at university. That's where I met my late husband - Paranjothy Athony Gaby Pillay and the others were Sunny Venketratnam, Kader Hashim, Enver Motala, Mogan Moodliar, John Samuels and just very many others. World Situation? I agree that the current times are fraught with stress and tensions and huge suffering all over the world. You will find that in recent times in conflicts and wars its civilians and mainly women and children who are the victims rather than soldiers fighting other soldiers.We are the living in terrifying times. My intention as high commissioner is to do what the General Assmebly has mandated me to do. They set up this position of an independent officer who will protect human rights of people all over the world across all countries. It's an enormous task I haven't started yet. I am going to consult everybody civil society organ siations, the personnel of 1000 people who have been running this office so far, various representatives of states, and of course the secretary general and the secretariat. I am going to do a broadbased consultation and of course familiarise myself with what has been done to date and then move forward. How will you tackle these issues? "You know I have spent the last 13 years committed to the principle of accountability and end to impunity. To hold political leaders and military leaders to account and punish them. So that's the principle of retributive justice which victims want and which the UN want because they set up these tribunals and the permanent court. As a judge I myself have sentenced five political leaders to life imprisonment which is a very strong way of dealing with leaders who commit serious crimes both violent crimes and economic crimes. But criminal prosecution is just one aspect. "Now as High Commissioner it gives me the opportunity to address this from different points of view. "People say you use the carrot or stick, pressure or diplomacy. I hope I can speed up my skills in this direction but I intend to plunge in." "One has to understand that I have no national loyalty when dealing with human rights violations. You have loyalties to the rule of law, justice and human rights principles. Secondly the High Commissioners office has the same standard for all countries. Sam standards of adherence - so whether it's Zimbabwe or any other country that would be the standard. The High Commissioner's office will not concentrate on any one country. If we do that it will affect the credibility of the office. You will accept that whereve victims are suffering or human rights are being violated, the High Commissioner will step in and be the voice for those people. "My attitude is that we just don't voice we don't to just speak about it you want to as far as possible to achieve results for victims. I can't tell you now that I have some magic solutions for that but I am going to follow the approahces followed by the previous high commissioner where she set up field officers in 50 states ton help governments themselves to build capacity or to help civilsociety organisations in those countries to build their capacities so that they can make their demands." Sudan? "The prosecutor is an independent director. He has been tasked by the UN General resolution which referred to the situation in Darfur. he has prepared his do0cuments. It will be a joint decision of judges to see whether there's sufficient evidence to indict the president of Sudan. "If there is there sufficient evidence then they will authorise the indictment or the warrant of arrest. "Finally the ICC guarantees fair trial. It's a judicial process. We are not talking about lynching and hanging. We have established a mechanism to deal with things like this. The President of Sudan or anyone else is innocent until the charges are proved against him." Sri Lanka? "Human rights violations all over the world, including Sri Lanka, will be covered by the High Commissioner. We are already doing so. We have many staff in the office addressing the situation in Sri Lanka. I think that conflicts that drag on for so long and are so heavily political asre huge challenge for all of us. But we can never give up we must ensure that victims on both sides are protected." Terrorism? "The crime of terrorism is still being defined if I may begin by looking at the law. The crime of aggression is still to be defined and once it is it will come under the supervision of the international criminal court. I think every country is dealing with terrorism. It 's a most insidious form of violence because it affects innocent people in large numbers. May be many states are totally unprepared for these kind of crimes. It's very difficult I imagine to have these kind of crimes investigated. And we always seem to be reacting to such crimes instead of being able to pre-empt them. I am troubled as you about these serious activities that seem to be feature of our current lives." August 2008